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 Beginner Breads
 2. Creating a Wild-Yeast Starter (Mother)
 Same flour type but need to change brands
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Suzan
22 Posts
Suzan
British Columbia
Canada

Posted - May 21 2018 :  09:18:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This week I had to change suppliers of the grain I was using in my counter mother as I was no longer able to get it in Canada. Itís still organic and pure but I am wondering if it will set my week two mother back a bit? So far it seems okay...

Ashley
287 Posts
Ashley
MOSCOW Idaho
USA

Posted - May 21 2018 :  09:42:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is it your oat flour that you needed to switch? It's always unfortunate when you have something that's working and it becomes unavailable. I'd keep an eye on it and see if your mother changes. The switch may slow the growth of your mother, but it should even out as long as the flour used remains consistent.

Ashley Ogle
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Suzan
22 Posts
Suzan
British Columbia
Canada

Posted - May 21 2018 :  09:49:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It was the oat mother and that explains why I has slowed down a touch now. I wonder if I should start another one with the new flour? I can be consistent with this one now as I am grinding it myself. Both oat Motherís were started with different oats. One with steel cut that I ground myself and one with preground oat flour.
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Ashley
287 Posts
Ashley
MOSCOW Idaho
USA

Posted - May 21 2018 :  7:42:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How far were you into the weekly feeding routine when you swapped flours? Since itís the same grain, it seems like it will even out in the next couple of days. But if it looks/smells bad or seems off, you may want to start over.

Ashley Ogle
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Suzan
22 Posts
Suzan
British Columbia
Canada

Posted - May 22 2018 :  06:28:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I swapped after my first bake day. So with the 1/2 cup of the 1 week old starter at the beginning if week two. Seems okay so far but I am finding that oat flour seems thicker or denser than the rice and quinoa. Of the two quinoa starters the one that I ground myself was so bitter that you couldnít eat the pancakes at all. Does this even out as it matures or is it as described in the book that I need to sprout and dry my own to eliminate this?
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Ashley
287 Posts
Ashley
MOSCOW Idaho
USA

Posted - May 22 2018 :  11:33:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If your oat flour mother seems too dry to work with, you may want to try cutting back on the amount of flour you stir in. Maybe 1/3 cup flour and 1/4 water per feeding? This is roughly 1 T and 2 t less than the standard 3/8 cup flour feeding amount, but may be enough to make a difference in your mother.

If your quinoa is bitter, it will stay bitter. The likely suspect for the bitterness is rancid grains, especially since you experienced bitterness with one quinoa flour but not the other. However, if you suspect it was bitter due to the outer coating still being in tact, it wouldn't hurt to rinse and dry your quinoa before milling to see it that helps. If you're up for it, sprouting is a great way to ensure that the coating is removed because of the rinsing that takes place.

Ashley Ogle
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Suzan
22 Posts
Suzan
British Columbia
Canada

Posted - May 23 2018 :  12:16:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for advise and I will try feeding this way. Itís still thick but smells good and has small bubbles but way thicker than all the others. I also started another oat starter with Bobs Red Mill this morning and will add less flour to this one. Is it he starter meant to be the consistency of a very thick smoothie? My white, brown and quinoa are varying degrees of this but the oat with the same measurements tends to be more like the very soft cream cheese analogy. Interesting beacuse it was like this on bake day after a week and yet it baked up pretty good.
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Ashley
287 Posts
Ashley
MOSCOW Idaho
USA

Posted - May 23 2018 :  1:12:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A thick smoothie consistency is a good comparison. Depending on the type of flour used, some are thicker and some are thinner. A softened cream cheese consistency seems a little thick for a mother, but it's good that your mother is active and bakes up nicely. I'm curious about how your new mother with less flour will perform. It was smart to start fresh with a new mother. That way, whether it goes well or not, you don't have a bunch of variables to contend with. Including your new oat flour mother, how many mothers do you have going right now?

Out of curiosity, did you notice any changes in consistency around day 4 of feeding/stirring? Around this time, your mother will "loosen up" and be a tad easier to stir. This change is more noticeable in gluten-based mothers, but happens in the gluten-free mothers as well.

Ashley Ogle
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Suzan
22 Posts
Suzan
British Columbia
Canada

Posted - May 23 2018 :  5:53:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I did notice a difference day 4 as well. Itís much lighter and easier to stir up.

I have 8 now withĒnewĒ oat one today. I did feed the new one tonight as you suggested and added more water less flour to the other two. Itís intersting with them as they have much smaller bubbles and become quite dense by feeding time. It seems this happens even when I add more water. I will keep documenting the oat Motherís. Is there a ratio of water to flour that I should not exceed as I play? They have done so well I donít want to loose them!
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Ashley
287 Posts
Ashley
MOSCOW Idaho
USA

Posted - May 24 2018 :  09:45:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow, 8 Mothers! It sounds like the oat flour is very unique as a mother. It makes a certain amount of sense because oats are prone to sucking liquids up like a sponge. The longer they sit, the thicker they get. I picked up some oats this morning to mill and will start a mother tomorrow. Fridays will be a good Bake Day for me. I'm anxious to get this started so I can have a first-hand view of what an oat-flour mother looks like.

Since I've never made an oat-flour mother before, and it sounds like it behaves differently from any other grain I've tried, I'm not sure on the maximum water-to-flour ratio. I think that conservative, incremental changes to the amount of flour/water you add is the best approach. If you find that 1/3 cup flour and 1/4 cup of water is still too thick, maybe try feeding equal parts--1/3 cup flour and 1/3 cup water. If that's too thick, I would drop down to 1/4 cup flour and 1/3 cup water, and so on... You'll want to try to keep the total volume you're feeding close to the original amounts so that the volume of mother you have at the end of each week isn't too large. The reason for this is that if your mother gets too large, the amount of flour added at each feeding will not be enough to sustain it.

Ashley Ogle
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Suzan
22 Posts
Suzan
British Columbia
Canada

Posted - May 24 2018 :  4:26:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Perfect. Thatís what I have been doing and recording it for each of the oats so when I find the magic number I will have a record.

The new one, two days old, is already bubbling and is much thinner right away with the 1/3 flour and 1/4 water. It must like being surrounding by all the others bubbling away.

I donít eat dairy so to grease the bowls last week I used coconut oil and I am not sure I liked that. Would you recommend the safflower oil in replacement of butter?

So glad you are joining me on the oat expedition!
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Ashley
287 Posts
Ashley
MOSCOW Idaho
USA

Posted - May 25 2018 :  09:27:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Safflower oil would be a nice, neutral oil to use. It wonít pick up the flour use to dust the pans like butter or coconut oil will, but I can imagine that coconut oil would give off a bit too much flavor.

Iím happy the hear that 1/3 cup flour and 1/4 cup water is better so far! I do think that when you have a lot of mothers going they become active faster. I bought some rolled oats and oat groats yesterday. Iím not sure about the flour made from the rolled oats, but thought Iíd give it a try because they are so accessible. Iím looking forward to seeing what each mother does!

Ashley Ogle
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Suzan
22 Posts
Suzan
British Columbia
Canada

Posted - May 26 2018 :  08:58:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh no!!! Just got started to bake today and on the first one, my perfect brown rice, I added the honey and the salt to the whole mother!!!! So sad. Just wondering if the 1/2 cup I took out after the addition will still work for the counter mother...or do I need to start again? I have be so careful about everything and feel just so disappointed I forgot to take the half cup out before this. Thanks in advance for the advise
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Ashley
287 Posts
Ashley
MOSCOW Idaho
USA

Posted - May 26 2018 :  09:14:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh no! It would be a shame to start over entirely, but on the other hand, it would be a shame to have the honey and salt throw off the composition of your mother. The salt is what I'm most concerned about. What if you scooped just 2 T of mother out, added it to your bowl, and continued feeding your mother as usual? That way, you get some of your wild yeasts, but the amount of salt and honey should be minimal and hopefully won't effect your mother. On the plus side, since you have a few mothers going, your brown rice flour mother should recover quickly.

Ashley Ogle
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Ashley
287 Posts
Ashley
MOSCOW Idaho
USA

Posted - May 26 2018 :  09:23:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This morning is the start of day 2 for my oat mothers. I'm using the standard feeding amounts from the book to start so I know what each is like with those amounts.

The mother made with milled oat groats is a little thicker, but I want to give it a few days and see how the consistency changes between feedings.

The mother with thick-rolled oats is very thick--I think I could pick some of it up and roll it into balls. The flour and water mixed in readily, but I don't think it is a good consistency for a mother. I will give it a couple more days and see if the consistency changes.

Ashley Ogle
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Suzan
22 Posts
Suzan
British Columbia
Canada

Posted - May 28 2018 :  12:28:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I had some surprises on bake day this week. Both brown and white rice were very thick with only 1/2 of the volume of the low end of flour required for the batter bread. So less flour, the rise was perfect, but when baked the white rice was very hard and the brown not much better. The quinoa needed under the low end of suggested flour for batter bread. The rise was perfect, texture after baking was outstanding, but so very bitter. So I discarded the two quinoa and do what you suggest and sprout my own to get rid of this. The oat batter breads didnít rise much but again the taste and texture was wonderful and with a house full of kids, they devoured all of them. The oat mothers are not bubbling very well and with the suggested changes in feeding they are thinner. The brown rice mother, with the accident I had adding the salt and honey still seems to be bubbling nicely so I am hoping I am out of the woods with this one.
Wondering if all the mothers, except white rice, are of the thinner consistency like the quinoa? My white rice mother is very fermented but very thick by the time I need to feed again. My batter breads, after two weeks, would have been to thick to stir if I had added the lowest amount of flour the recipe called for.
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Ashley
287 Posts
Ashley
MOSCOW Idaho
USA

Posted - May 29 2018 :  10:37:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's interesting that your rice batter breads were so thick. The white rice mother is thicker than most, but the brown rice tends to be on the thin side. Quinoa is one of the thinnest mothers. All of the mothers vary in thickness. If I had to arrange them in order of thinnest to thickest, it would be: quinoa, einkorn, brown rice, white flour, sprouted wheat, Einka, Kamut, and white rice.

My oat flour mothers are on their 5th day of feeding. This morning, I noticed a few more bubbles on the one made with milled oat groats and the beginnings of a tangy smell. It's a little thick, but not quite as thick as say, the white rice mother. The one made with thick-rolled oats is...interesting. It's really, really thick. It has loosened, but only slightly.

Here's a picture of the oat-groat mother from the morning of day 3:




And here's a picture of the thick-rolled oat mother from the morning of day 3:


Ashley Ogle
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Suzan
22 Posts
Suzan
British Columbia
Canada

Posted - May 29 2018 :  11:20:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the pictures. Your oat groat mother looks like mine do. I donít normally see more bubbles than that, even in week three.

Mine were never as thick as your rolled oat mother. Interesting

What are you going to bake on day 7?

Any suggestions or have you ever heard of not being able to use even the lowest of the amount of flour for the batter breads? They were just all to thick and were not even close to the ďsoft cream cheeseĒ consistency. That could have been why they were too hard? In that situation, as we are on the coast, would you add the flour and then water as well? Or only enough flour to get to the cream cheese consistency?


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Ashley
287 Posts
Ashley
MOSCOW Idaho
USA

Posted - May 29 2018 :  12:07:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think I'll make waffles on day 7 with the oat groat mother. Not sure what to do about the rolled oat one, as it's clearly not going to work without adding a lot of water to the mix. Also, it has yet to take on any kind of fermented smell. It kind of smells like a bowl of cold oatmeal. I have noticed that the oat groat mother is a little slow to bubble. By now, I would expect to see a few more bubbles than I am, especially since its sitting right next to a Kamut mother that is bubbling away. I'm curious to see how this goes. Do you see a lot of rise on Bake Day with your oat-flour mother?

For your breads that needed less flour than the low end in the chart, is there a chance that you're losing some water from your mothers into the air? You mentioned that you're on the coast, so this might not be an issue due to natural humidity, but it's a thought. Have you measured the volume of any of your mothers the morning of Bake Day? If so, how do your volumes compare to the ones in the chart?

Too much flour in the batter is a likely suspect for hard breads. Something to note is that white rice and brown rice don't bake up as "airy" as some of the other grains. They are a bit chewy, but the inside should be moist and tender.

If your batter is still too thick to add even the smallest volume of flour in the chart, I would suggest adding water to the batter so you have enough batter for each pan.

Ashley Ogle
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Suzan
22 Posts
Suzan
British Columbia
Canada

Posted - May 29 2018 :  2:29:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My oat Motherís have been slow to bubble as well and this being the start of week three I am finally seeing some larger, more pronounced bubbles coming up. I did have to change suppliers on the three week old one after week one so it might have slowed this down. The week one mother is bubbling slowly as well but is nicely emitting a fermented smell. All three have a much softer, More sweet somehow, fermented smell, not as strong as the others I have going.

I have two bake days with the oat Motherís and did not see a lot of rise but the batter bread was very springy, moist and full of bubbles when baked. Truly delicious #128523; it was surprising because of the lack of bubbles throughout the week and the lack of rise on bake day.

I am feeding all three with different flour and water amounts.

The volumes of the mothers may even be more than the chart, but not less before baking. So I was good on the volume. The consistency seemed good until I added the flour and then with the first addition it seemed like the mother was ravenous and consumed the flour instantly leaving the batter way to thick in an instant. It was like a chemical reaction. My kids were fascinated it with it. Only the quinoa and the oat did not react this way. I did add the water to the white rice though...or I would not have been able to stir it. My white rice mother is just like this at every feeding. As soon as the flour is added it reacts instantly by thickening up and only relaxes by a in-depth stirring

The oat is very interesting isnít it? I would think without some really good bubbles over two weeks it may have had some mould or liquid on top. But it still seems good and none of this has happened.

The taste is the same flavour I had in Australia so I know I am on the right path and so appreciate your help, wisdom and mother starting help out with this journey. I am thinking I may phone Austrailia today and see what I can find out from the Bakery.
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Ashley
287 Posts
Ashley
MOSCOW Idaho
USA

Posted - May 30 2018 :  11:18:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm really looking forward to baking with the oat flour. The smell is very subtle--just a hint of sour mingling with the smell of the oats. I keep thinking that it should start bubbling soon, but it's only speckled with a few bubbles at each feeding.

The white rice is prone to sucking up water and does need more liquid added to recipes for this reason. It's fun to get the kids involved in the action. Does your brown rice mother settle between feedings? The quinoa is a pleasure to bake with and unlike any other gluten-free flour I've worked with. I am anxious to work with the oat flour to see if it's at all similar to quinoa.

Ashley Ogle
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Suzan
22 Posts
Suzan
British Columbia
Canada

Posted - May 30 2018 :  7:49:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How did your waffles turn out? I made muffins with my new oat mother and they were very moist.

Still not a lot of bubbling but it was interesting as I had to leave the 2 cups I was going to use for the muffins for a couple of hours and my dishwasher was on and the heat through the stone counter tops really warmed it up and it was really so much more active and full of bubbles. That extra heat, unintentionally, really made it start working.


My brown rice mother does settle a little between feedings.

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Ashley
287 Posts
Ashley
MOSCOW Idaho
USA

Posted - May 31 2018 :  10:38:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A little settling in the brown rice mother is normal. I was curious if the thick consistency of yours made it so it doesn't settle at all.

I will make waffles tomorrow and am looking forward to it. It seems like it will make very moist breads. The heat from your dishwasher giving your mother a boost is a happy accident!

Ashley Ogle
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Suzan
22 Posts
Suzan
British Columbia
Canada

Posted - Jun 01 2018 :  09:18:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wondering if should keep my original two oat starters? I can see very small, with a magnifying glass, bubbles throughout and it smells slightly fermented and yeasty in a good way but I am not seeing the larger bubbles or the large air pockets andlofty rise of the Riceís flours that happen between feedings. As I am new at this...is there anything food poisoning wise I should be wary of in an not so active mother?

My rice flours look exactly wile the picture in the book on page 33 second from the top. As my batter breads didnít work at all last week with the rice Motherís would you suggest another try with the batter breads or something else. Maybe the jump from week two to three is significant? Last week it was so hard right through even through it had a really great rise. I added the water and could only get 1/2 cup of flour as it became too thick.

The brown rice also only 1/2 cup of flour to the batter bread as it was much too thick.

Any other suggestions to have some success this week?
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Ashley
287 Posts
Ashley
MOSCOW Idaho
USA

Posted - Jun 01 2018 :  9:22:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You typically have to worry about mold when you have an over-active or underfed mother. This happens because the bacteria within the mother exhaust the food supply (flour added) in between feedings. As long as your mothers smell pleasant and don't have any mold growth, you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

1/2 cup brown rice is close to the low end of flour in the chart. If your loaves are level on the top, you added the correct amount of flour. If they're sinking in the center, you need to add more flour. As your mothers mature, your loaves will loft more, but the rice flour breads will always be denser than breads made with other types of flour.

I made a baker's dozen of waffles with my oat-flour mother today and they were wonderful! Just a little crispy on the outside, and tender in the center. I gave up on the mother I started with the milled rolled oats because it was just so incredibly thick and it never did change. My mother made with oat-groat flour is a little thick and has a subtle sour smell. I didn't pick up any sour flavor in the waffles, but we'll see what itís like next week!

Good luck on your Bake Day, I hope this is helpful!

Ashley Ogle
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Suzan
22 Posts
Suzan
British Columbia
Canada

Posted - Jun 05 2018 :  12:47:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have another bake day tomorrow with the oat mother and and going to do another batter bread.
Now that you have your oat mother going and know the consistency I am wondering how you would approach a batter bread with her?

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